Bunch of useless people

[zomg]

I think he has a point, that whatever we believe, we should be doing more for our beliefs. Some people, like the owner of this site, are obviously doing something right, as it's how people like me found it. Not everyone has the same experience, resources, and connections though, and the most many can do is support him to keep going and learn from each other. I would like to do more, something that works, but at the same time, I don't want to stoop to the same low level as those for unjust war, occupation, racism, greed, killing in the name of god(s), and so on. I don't even like raising my voice or using rude sarcasm.

In a way, I can understand that if you grow up in Israel, and all your life Palastines have been blowing stuff up, you'd feel compelled to shoot back or seek revenge. Because it's all you know, you might not be able to see the reason they are attacking you in the first place. And because you enact revenge, they do to, and it's an endless cycle. Both sides keep attacking each other until the original reason is lost, and now the attacks are mostly retalitory. The whole conflict is based on the fact that two wrongs don't make a right, everyone knows that, but they also know that revenge feels good.

How do you nicely force common sense and reasoning into people?

[TownWatch]

In a way, I can understand that if you grow up in Israel, and all your life Palastines have been blowing stuff up, you'd feel compelled to shoot back or seek revenge. Because it's all you know, you might not be able to see the reason they are attacking you in the first place. And because you enact revenge, they do to, and it's an endless cycle. Both sides keep attacking each other until the original reason is lost, and now the attacks are mostly retalitory. The whole conflict is based on the fact that two wrongs don't make a right, everyone knows that, but they also know that revenge feels good.

Well, its not so bad to grow up in israel... life's not hard in here as some people might think... we have our life as normal as any other might have in europe or USA, I bet the palestinians got really hard time there... unlike us,
problem is... people in israel at least while they grow up till they serve in the IDF, arent beeing exposed to the "other side" (the palestinian side), all they see and hear is "terrorists did this, terrorists blew that" etc etc
they build up anger and hate blindly towards palestinians, and if u ask me? i think the gov is quite happy with it... after all, these kids are the soldiers of tomorrow, they dont want them to be loving and caring...

then u are reaching your service period, a kid with an M-16 and a whole lot of anger and hate... what are u going to do? "pop some palestinians"

its dumb, its wrong... but thats how a person in such situation acts, not all of them....

i saw the soldier who punch his friend for hiting an innocent palestinian, same as i saw the soldier who shoots a little kid for throwing stones, because his friend (soldier) died from a stone thrown by a kid a week ago.

its really hard to understand it... but there is no "IDF monsters", its plain humans... there are people behind these helmets, with life, values and mostly good education... its the lack of knowledge regarding the other side and the "teenage spirit" (action seeking) that brings resaults like u see them today....

How do you nicely force common sense and reasoning into people?

I dont think such thing is possible... i would really like to hear a solution that can end this stupidity.

[MindGames]

In a way, I can understand that if you grow up in Israel, and all your life Palastines have been blowing stuff up, you'd feel compelled to shoot back or seek revenge. Because it's all you know, you might not be able to see the reason they are attacking you in the first place. And because you enact revenge, they do to, and it's an endless cycle. Both sides keep attacking each other until the original reason is lost, and now the attacks are mostly retalitory. The whole conflict is based on the fact that two wrongs don't make a right, everyone knows that, but they also know that revenge feels good.

May I remind you that those settlers are illegally residing on Palestinian lands occupied by Israel? It is the Palestinians who are under siege from the settlers, not the other way. Israeli soldiers surround each settlement and block it off from the surrounding towns and villages. People cannot get to work, farmers cannot get to their fields to harvest their produce, and distributors cannot get their good delivered to shops. They raze olive groves, expropriate land, poison wells, and massacre Palestinians routinely. In fact, more Palestinians have been killed by settlers than Israelis by car bombs.

All settlements are illegal and an obstance to peace themselves. So saying the Palestinians should not resist foreign settlement simply verserses the relationship altogether. The occupier, the colonist, is by definition the initiator of violence, which consequently and very logically leads to resistance from the occupied, the colonized. The Palestinians are defending themselves from gun-toting and murderous settlers who are no less violent or ruthless than the Israeli army.

The settlers are dangerous fanatics who are ready to risk the lives of their own children for their colonial mission. The settlers in Gaza who were protesting their "evacuation" held signs like "Death to the Arabs", and "Let the Army Win!", meaning allow the army (as if it is currently fettered) to kill and maim more Palestinians until they all succumb and bow under the settlers' feet. Those tendencies borrow a chapter from European fascism during World War II - the same fanaticism, dehumanization of the victims, 'divine' motives. Would you call those European fascists "innocent" too?

Depicting the settlers as victims of Palestinian aggression is one of the crudest and most humiliating expressions I have ever heard. The Palestinian struggle against the expropriation of their own land is an anti-colonialist struggle to restore to the Palestinians their national rights in their country. The only future that illegal settlement offers the Jewish population of Palestine is endless war, and rightly so.

[Left of Larry]

When we see jews calling jews nazis because they do not support zionism, gives us reason to believe, that zionists are obviosly brainwashing israel as much as the extremist christina right wing neocons are doing in the states. This is allowed because Israel is a theocracy and NOT a democracy.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/True_Torah_Nazis.htm

How can someone in their right mind not even tolerate dissenting voices. I know it's not all jews in israel that are the representative voice, however the extreme zionists are what is controlling your government, much like the neocons are controlling our government and by far, they are not the majority voice. I have spoken to some israeli's, one of my favorite metal bands is from israel, I have met them, and they were the coolest katz. However, not even tolerance for an even discourse is good enough for the zionists. They have one and only one vision, and you wonder why the palestinians are retaliating, and given their lack of money for a military, they cannot wage a soverign war, so they retort to whatever means they can. Even Ehud Barak once admitted, had he been born a Palestinian, he ‘would have joined a terrorist organisation’.

I will speak for myself here, because there are anti-semites on this forum, and I do not necessarily share their views..but I will say this.
My problem as an american citizen is that I am seeing our schools, our social programs, our rights being completely destroyed because of our unabashed support for israel, which is nothing more than the neocons' gateway to justify "democritizing" the middle east under the hegemonic vision of the neocons. Without our support for Israel, we would not have terrorism against us (whether caused by Israel, muslims or our own government). We give Israel more money than any other country in the world, why are we doing this? What is it that Israel has to offer us in return? They coudln't even commit troops in Iraq due to the fact that it would seem tooo zionist by arab countries. So it comes to no surprise that we here in the united states have some resentment over Israel's zionist movement. Most people think that because I am anti-support for israel, that I am automatically pro-muslim or arab. This is wrong, I do not condone the acts fo the palestenians, but as our government tells us at here in the states, WAR is WAR. I hate fundamentalist muslims as much as I hate fundamentalist xtians or fundamentalist zionist jews. It is the fundamental brainwashing with the use of religion that is the main fodder for these wars.

But how just do you think it is, to bulldoze complete villages in order to find a group of 5 men.
What does the israeli government do to help the children and families that have been displaced because of their homes being completely demolished? How fair is it that for every israeli child dead, 4 die on the palestinian side? THESE ARE ALL INNOCENT CHILDREN. But I guarantee you the brother of these children, has REVENGE on his mind, and guess what, one more "terrorist" is born. The cycle is NONENDING. Perpetual war.

I know there are some good people in Israel, and I know there are also bad people in palestine, and I am also aware that the extremist muslims would like to see Israel disappear, and I also know that these same muslims want to spread islam all over the world. It is a power struggle. But here in the united states, we have embroiled ourselves into a conflict, that we should not have placed ourselves in, and for that we find resentment in our government's unabashed support for Israel.

We are not even allowed to criticize israel without being labeled anti-semitic, hell, jews are not allowed to criticize israel without being labeled anti-semitic, this is how crazy this has gotten. AIPAC here in the states is soo powerful, why? There is no lobby group for Italy, or Japan, or whatever other coutnry you want? Why is it that OUR GOVERNMENT has become a shadow governmetn to help ISRAEL? I have no specific hatred towards jews, I am not an anti-semite, but I criticize the United State's support for Israel which counters all of our interests. Israel even SPIES on our government. How do you think one would react, outside of RACE or RELIGION: if a country that we are unabashadly helping and supporting spits in our face by spying on us? How would you feel? I know most of this is beyond yours and most of the Israeli's control. and it is in the hands of your government, however, I will leave you with this to think about: Is it really in the best interest of the israeli people to continue with zionism? When, do you think? this conflict or war between Israel and Palestine end? Realistically. Take idealism aside and think realistically and rationally just for one second.

[Left of Larry]

I VOTE TO NOT BAN TOWNWATCH. BECAUSE I AM INTERESTED TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY. AND I AM OPEN TO DISCOURSE. AND I DO NOT CENSOR. IT IS ONLY FAIR TO PRACTICE WHAT WE PREACH.

[MindGames]

I VOTE TO NOT BAN TOWNWATCH. BECAUSE I AM INTERESTED TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY. AND I AM OPEN TO DISCOURSE. AND I DO NOT CENSOR. IT IS ONLY FAIR TO PRACTICE WHAT WE PREACH.

Not censoring idiots like that is precisely why we have Neocons in control of our contry right now. As another anti-neocon pointed out in a past thread: "Right-wing lunacy would never gain support without the scattering effect of ultra left-wing relativism. We see that in our own recent history. The post-modernist relativism was exploited by Neo-conservatives to justify their blatant lies and propaganda: after all "everyone has their own opinion" right? In post-modernist thought there is no truth, just various worldviews imposing their values on reality. Therefore a cancer study published by the American Medical Association has the same value as a cancer study published by R J Reynolds Tobacco, and Intelligent Design is as valid a theory of biology as evolution. That's the real result of open-mindedness.

Remember how right-wing deception was justified in the early 90s by blaming the mainstream moderate media of "liberal bias" because they refused to show "both sides of the issue"? Well, the truth is that the two sides of the issue were Reality vs. Neocon propaganda, but the relativist philosophy that liberalism had so successfully integrated into our public consciousness allowed the media to jump to the utterly absurd conclusion that both sides deserved equal time even when one side was telling obvious falsehoods. The result was the Republican revolution in Congress, which lead to more bogus charges of bias against the moderate media, which lead to more media capitulation and more right-wing lies making it into the public airwaves... Next thing you know, elections are being stolen and wars started based on fabricated evidence.

CASE IN POINT: A recent Amnesty International report describing abuses in the Neocon's detainment camp network, in which the word "gulag" was used as a metaphor. The Bush administration dismissed the report because the word "gulag" was an "absurd" characterization, and the media put forth both sides as equal: Amnesty says "GITMO is a gulag" and Bush says "that's absurd." No analysis of the substance of the charges, no point-by-point address of the details of the report, just one opinion vs. another. That's the real result of liberal relativism: the utter and absolute victory of conservative deception and diversion.

And, after decades of promoting the idea that everyone's opinion is equal, suddenly the left is baffled when no one believes them when they present the truth of the Bush administration's lies and treason."

[Iconoclast]

Not censoring idiots like that is precisely why we have Neocons in control of our contry right now.

Nope! If we didn't have a democracy then the comfort-seeking rabble would never have been allowed to let them in power!

I dislike censoring thoughts. I'd rather just kill people for being spiritual defectives.

[Iconoclast]

Those are all good points MindGames, however I feel like it's our failure to teach, not our failure to censor. We shouldn't HAVE to censor anyone, we should just be better teachers right?

People don't want logical reasons. If they did, Jesus and Bush wouldn't be issues.

Freedom of speech should be limited to the philosopher 'caste' and let the rabble work and have well-fed stomachs.

[Ry]

that tells me one thing, U ARE LYING ry, and u lie to get your actions (such as banning him for a legitemit argument) justified, thats sad ry

No ligitimate argument was ever made. Just personal attacks and cut and pastes from ADL JDL and JL sites without sourcing them. Every claim was addressed and then the facts were just ignored.

When people want to argue about religion or politics I allow it (and it can go on for days or weeks and I will argue until the cows come home) as long as it is an argument. But if someone just got on saying kill all Christians and that they would be proud of it. Which is what goddess did by saying Jews should rule the world over the lesser and what townwatch did saying we should whipe out arabs and you take delight in killing kids. That is just blatent facsism it is beyond racisism it is advocating murder.

Under any kind of free speech law that is not OK. And I am not having the sitr I pay for taken down because of what some teenage idiot said about killing the A-rabs.


im not censoring an alternative point of view. Hell I will even make a zionist room where you can spread all you BS and have it stopped down by the facts and truth. But dont post in an anti-neocon political section where people come to read an anti-neocons point of view, with your cut and pased from the Jewish library.

the whole thing on the USS Liberty I proved entirerly even had a link to a survivor talking about the attack. This was just ignored. You zionist are not interested in learning facts or telling the truth. YOu got an agendna to spread lies and an inbred emotional attachment to the state of Israel in your pathetic nationalism for a state dependent on America to even exist.

we have had plenty of recent arguments about religion or the disinfo from david icke jeff rense types but as batshit crazy as i think that stuff is I let people discuss it as long as they wanted and I tried to address every point with evidence something lacking in the illuminati did it crowd. But no one ever said murder was good or that X should rule the earth. Check out the ANTINEOCONS section and read the last guide line.

[Left of Larry]

I VOTE TO NOT BAN TOWNWATCH. BECAUSE I AM INTERESTED TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY. AND I AM OPEN TO DISCOURSE. AND I DO NOT CENSOR. IT IS ONLY FAIR TO PRACTICE WHAT WE PREACH.

Not censoring idiots like that is precisely why we have Neocons in control of our contry right now. As another anti-neocon pointed out in a past thread: "Right-wing lunacy would never gain support without the scattering effect of ultra left-wing relativism. We see that in our own recent history. The post-modernist relativism was exploited by Neo-conservatives to justify their blatant lies and propaganda: after all "everyone has their own opinion" right? In post-modernist thought there is no truth, just various worldviews imposing their values on reality. Therefore a cancer study published by the American Medical Association has the same value as a cancer study published by R J Reynolds Tobacco, and Intelligent Design is as valid a theory of biology as evolution. That's the real result of open-mindedness.

Remember how right-wing deception was justified in the early 90s by blaming the mainstream moderate media of "liberal bias" because they refused to show "both sides of the issue"? Well, the truth is that the two sides of the issue were Reality vs. Neocon propaganda, but the relativist philosophy that liberalism had so successfully integrated into our public consciousness allowed the media to jump to the utterly absurd conclusion that both sides deserved equal time even when one side was telling obvious falsehoods. The result was the Republican revolution in Congress, which lead to more bogus charges of bias against the moderate media, which lead to more media capitulation and more right-wing lies making it into the public airwaves... Next thing you know, elections are being stolen and wars started based on fabricated evidence.

CASE IN POINT: A recent Amnesty International report describing abuses in the Neocon's detainment camp network, in which the word "gulag" was used as a metaphor. The Bush administration dismissed the report because the word "gulag" was an "absurd" characterization, and the media put forth both sides as equal: Amnesty says "GITMO is a gulag" and Bush says "that's absurd." No analysis of the substance of the charges, no point-by-point address of the details of the report, just one opinion vs. another. That's the real result of liberal relativism: the utter and absolute victory of conservative deception and diversion.

And, after decades of promoting the idea that everyone's opinion is equal, suddenly the left is baffled when no one believes them when they present the truth of the Bush administration's lies and treason."

yeah but you're taking my quote way out of context. Having open discourse on a thread like this..is one thing...propaganda on mass media to the masses is completely different. All I'm saying is this...let the man speak his mind. I think he's willing to have a conversation...a civil one, so why not let him? We can then accept, refute, agree or not agree and have it posted here. If you cannot counter argue the man's points, then...it shows weakness in YOUR argument. I belong to another fourm Rational Responders..where Ry also has a section..where we LOVE theists to come and debate....we do not censor theists...at ALL even though it is an Atheist forum and most of us are determined to refute theism wherever possible. WE actually ask for theists to come on the show and we debate them. To censor someone here because of opposing views...would show cowardice due to an inability to counter argue. So that is why I say, do not ban or censor townwatch.