An opinion---Fuck Hegemony, and Fuck Al Queda.

[Guest]

How was McVeigh a fundie? I thought he was just pissed with the government, rightfully so, and decided to take matters into his own hands.

Maybe not an extreme fundamentalist but given his background...white protestant male... you would think he wouldn't have resorted to killing innocent people including children...my point being his motive wasn't religion..but shouldn't have his religious morals stopped him?

[Left of Larry]

Agreed. That is why I put so many and ones that are probably NOT out of context.

.

But also, keep in mind that taking passages..and quotes.....without understanding the context can be very misleading...
as I had mentioned earlier

While one finds "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" (e.g., 4: 89), in almost every case it is followed by something like "if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (2:90; 4: 90; 5: 2; 8: 61; 22: 39)

so you see, the "followed by" part gets ignored.

[Dilapidated Nation]

I don't think religion can be measured by the texts from which they stem from. The big three (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) have become the subjects of what their followers have made it.

For example the Old Testament (AKA: The Torah) is incredibly, horrifically violent. However Historically followers of Judaism have been the least violent of the three “Abrahamic” sects. While supposedly the sect of “Love and forgiveness” has been a major driving force behind the rape and pillaging of peoples thought the world. I know very little of about Islam but from the sections of the Quran that I have read and from what some of my Muslim friends have told me it is also has a very peaceful and loving message if subject to the right interpretation.

I think they are all full of shit of course, but unfortunately most of the world does not share our view.

[Left of Larry]

I think they are all full of shit of course, but unfortunately most of the world does not share our view.

Unfortunately.....

[TEF]

QUORAN QUOTES:

28:86 "Never be a helper to the disbelievers."

66:9 "Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you."

9:29 "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah."

4:101 "The disbelievers are an open enemy to you."

4:144 "Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?"

5:51 "Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them."

3:151 "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve."

8:12 "I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."

4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."

4:74 "Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

A RELIGION OF PEACE

First of all, you spelled Quran wrong. Second of all, those verses (if they are original and untainted) are taken so far out of context. You have to read the whole Sura to grasp the meaning of it. Let me give you an example of Bible quotes that are even more extreme:

Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

Exodus 22:19 NAB
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.


2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.

Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Ephesians 6:5 NLT
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.


I could add more if you like, I dont have much time now. But you see how verses can be taken out of context?

[TEF]

I'm sure my version is not the "Ann Coulter" type. I got those quotes from www.skepticsannotatetedbible.com, which is run by what I suspect are Secular Humanists.

I can't blame the islamics for 9/11 and the bombings due to the West's imperialism, but they're still a much a threat to us even if we leave their country as they seek to assimilate us into their religion, which like Christianity seeks to universalize the worship of their god.

I know all muslims won't be as fundie about it, but the religion itself seeks to spread and it's current target is Europe--already we have Europe being almost literally invaded by muslim immigrants to the point where the original population will be a minority in 30-75 years.

I really dont believe it is the goal of either religion to forcefully spread their ideologies. There could be a minority of people on each side with those aims, but they are just that an insignificant minority. I know it is illegal in Islam to convert anyone by force. I believe the ongoing conflict today is more political. It is made out to look like a religous one, to aid the politics of the U.S., to cover up the injustices carried out. Then you have the fundamentalists (Al-Qaeda) who are not true Muslims, because their attacks only hurt innocents and other Muslims in the long run. The attacks only give the U.S. pre-text to continue "the war on terror."

[Iconoclast]

Well let's just say the abrahamic religions.....

It is somewhat inaccurate to say such as Judaism doesn't like spreading. There is a reason there is only one English Talmud on the internet, you know.

Maybe not an extreme fundamentalist but given his background...white protestant male... you would think he wouldn't have resorted to killing innocent people including children...my point being his motive wasn't religion..but shouldn't have his religious morals stopped him?

I believe McVeigh was a Catholic, and he didn't resort to "killing children", they were only collateral damage and he would rather they not have been in the vicinity, but there would be no other way for him to attack the corrupt government without killing "innocents". It is inevitable in war and revolution.

First of all, you spelled Quran wrong.

I wasn't aware there was an official English spelling.

I really dont believe it is the goal of either religion to forcefully spread their ideologies.

Both religions believe that the only way to enter 'heaven' is through believing in their sycophantic god... Christianity has traditionally been spread through the sword, and the Spanish Inquisition is a textbook example of that, and in more recent times the Native Americans have suffered a similar fate to the hands of Jehovah. Today Islam is spreading like cochroaches to many parts of the world, and you can see the massive amounts of religious tolerance in the countries it exists in.