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Post by Iconoclast » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:17 pm

what we have here are three arguments,
1 A ugenics claim
2 A over population claim
3 A they saw it coming so they should have left (thus no pity)
4 (none of these are racial claims at all.)
1) Eugenics is beautiful.
2) Definitely so, and for quite some time....
3) Yes. What are feet for?
4) I'm sure there is a racial component to it, as blacks DO tend to have lower IQ, especially inner city ones that are not capable of escaping their slums.
I don't feel like Iconoclast and company really mean what they say. (I may be may be wrong) I think they just like to argue and often take the more unpopular or minority positions. Kind of like paying the socratic methods for moral questions.
Both. I generally believe what I say, but word it in a way that prompts discussion.
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Post by Iconoclast » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:42 pm

Ry wrote:Starting with number 4. I think it is clear everyone is talking about poor people and not race.
It is directly poor people, but race is an indirect factor. Biological determinism and all...
Number 3 they saw it coming and should have left.
Well, many people DID leave but that doesn't mean their houses were going to be there when they get back. Other people who probably couldn't leave packed into the super dome. Also none of them knew that the levee would break. The damage on New Orleans was abetted by the levee breaking which was neglected funding for many years. Those who stayed in their homes probably died. Those people have been paying taxes for many generations with the believe that the government was spending the money to prevent disasters. They are by contract part of the United States and have a legal agreement with the federal government to protect their life liberty and prosute of property.
You have a point, but but sticking around regardless of whether the levee broke was purely foolish, unless they didn't care or had decent enough motivations which very few did. I wonder if many stayed behind because they were too busy looting or planning on looting...
Number 2 Over population in the world. There is not over population in the USA. The marority of the land is not inhabited. Places like China and India and Africa have over population mainly due to religious taboos against birth control. Birth control prevents more births than disater and war put together. With the exception of WWII maybe.The best way to stop over population is condoms and the pill.
There are too many people, and our methods of feeding them are forcing us to kill wildlife, pollute the air, and uphold the technoindustrial system. Cities are crowded and neurotic. Who pollutes the most? America or Africa? Who uses products cultivated from the rainforests? Britain or Afganistan? Our resources may say that there is no overpopulation today, but these resources are dwindiling at a fast pace because of the amount of people who consume them.

Even with birth control Africa would be extremely overpopulated, let us not pretend that religion is much of a cause. And one reason it stays overpopulated is because the West, in their Christian kindness, keep giving them food and medicine instead of letting most of them die so food and resources aren't spread thinly.

The best way of stopping overpopulation is removing the portion of the populace that shouldn't be alive, such as the Terri Schiavos, OJ Simpsons, crack whores, and other undesirables. Condomns and birth control should be reserved for people with inheritable genetic illnesses and for eugenical means.
Its over population when you exceed your food copacity.
It is going to happen when the people have no means of paying for their food or transporting their food.
But the food supply in many areas is not short because there are too many people. It is short because of a minority ownership over the food and corporate interests that benefit from keeping it scarce.
The corporations do not benefit from keeping it scarce in third world countries. They would rather have those countries with better economies so they could have another market to cater to. Globalization.
The earth is capable of feeding ten times what we feed. We throw food away in the US. I mean straight from the farm not just from people's plates. We have been all over agrobusiness and how that crap works with drug companies etc on other places on this board. so I leave that alone for now.
Stuff is thrown away because it does not meet regulatory demands of safety and cleansliness. There is no reason to throw away food if it can be used for other things.

How is the earth capable of feeding ten times of what is already fed? That would require a large population with exponential growth. Would it require removing the rain forests and replacing them with ranches?

Do you have any sources for this ten times information?

people weak in one time might be valuable given a small invention. Look at all the people who wear eye glasses. With out contacts and glasses they would be nearly useless they would be sweeping the streets. But the smal handicap is corrected and they are now among the most power in society..
You can't give someone eyeglasses for their brains. What could we invent that turn the worthless and meek into something valueable? We already have typewriters. Do we even want to continue having more people, at the expense of breeding higher quality individuals?

Eyesight would be no problem had eugenics been a proper force in the past. I would rather not build on top of mistakes, but solve illnesses.
"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

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Post by Dilapidated Nation » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:56 pm

You'd make a great Nazi Doctor :wink:
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Post by Ry » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:32 pm

Even with birth control Africa would be extremely overpopulated, let us not pretend that religion is much of a cause. And one reason it stays overpopulated is because the West, in their Christian kindness, keep giving them food and medicine instead of letting most of them die so food and resources aren't spread thinly.
ha ha ha

in their Christian kindness. LOL I almost fell out of my chair. The West controls the land in Africa via private ownership of the land, taken by force from long ago. They cause a food shortage on purpose and export food to Europe and then sell it back to Africa. They don't GIVE them aid, the "AID" is a nice word for Bank loans to pay to buy back their own damn food.

it is called a perpetual debt system. The medicine they give is to bolster profits for drug companies, they loans are paid back at the exspense of destorying the African currencies, thus insuring cheap labor and a worhtless money supply if anyone one is saving because your savings will go down because of the inflation from the perpetual debt system.

The World Bank will give a loan for African nation to build schools and hostpitals BUT not a loan to make manufacturing plants for African products. If they build the schools they go into debt but they have no way to pay it with their short money supply. So they lease more land to Western corporations for cheap to pay for the loans for their infastucture.

IF they could have a source of money AKA manufacture their own goods, because they have plenty of resources, they could sell products all over the world and then they could build their own schools and hospitals roads etc with no loan or with a payable one and they would not have to lease the land to Westerners.

Do they teach you that is school? hell no they make you think Africans are just stupid. They take a paternal attitude to it.

Some ask why get a loan form the banks? well guess what your nation does it too. They control everything. But in America people own their own land.

xtians Churches give billions of dollars to Israel. They collect money from the sheep so that they can build more money collecting houses - churches - so they can spread the word aka gather assets and power.
Ry,no one needs to have an argument for not being racist,get a fucking grip and stop letting asshole minute men wannabes have a say in things around your space if you actually believe in somethig worthwhile.
Thses extreme right wing fools like ICONOCLAST are just promoting themselves,he doesn't give a shit about anything but his own bullshit self image and being an annoying little cunt to people who are trying to have a proper discussion about what to do about things.
well I agree the things said are outrageous. But I don:t think Iconoclast has said anything Racist. Elitist? yes, but not racist, it is a race free elitism.


There are too many people, and our methods of feeding them are forcing us to kill wildlife, pollute the air, and uphold the technoindustrial system. Cities are crowded and neurotic. Who pollutes the most? America or Africa? Who uses products cultivated from the rainforests? Britain or Afganistan? Our resources may say that there is no overpopulation today, but these resources are dwindiling at a fast pace because of the amount of people who consume them.
red harring

The US was on the same track to over population with families of 11 kids until we got condoms then it dropped down to 2 kids when we got the pill.

We don't HAVE to pollute the environment and kill wild life in order to keep the population under control. Corporations do that to make money. People with hanicaps and severe retardation generally don't have children so they won't be adding to the over population.

We need those 'bad genes' their are direct links between austim and mathmatical genious, writing disorders and wholistic thinkers, and so on.

Motzart would have ben a drunk if not for the invention on the piano. What would he do or be before that? Look at all the computer dorks who would have been nearly worthless nerds only a few decades ago. If you have ugenics, it is simple, you over specialize. And over specialization breeds in weakness. One common people will fall to one common threat. Like Native Americans and small pox. No biological diversity and no immunity.
Eyesight would be no problem had eugenics been a proper force in the past. I would rather not build on top of mistakes, but solve illnesses.
if you got rid of all the people with poor eye sight you would lose everything they have made, from likes of Ben Frankiln to Einstein. You would also lose the productivity of adults who lose their sight. Bright individuals continue to work contribute and be good people with good minds even after their sight is lost. Glasses or contacts or lazer surgery prolong the goodness.

Only a quater of my argument was done. First there are those people who are 'fixed' with a small invention, or a large one like Steven Hawkings.

Secondly what would be the criteria for sterolizing people? Who would decide and how would that not get corupt?

And what makes someone worthy, being a good consumer and producing lots of shit? Are not the looters doing exactly the S.Dawinistic thing of survival of the fittest? They are stealing the TVs and the Beer from weaker people. You see human evolution is not about strong individuals. It's about groups of wimps who as a collective are stronger than anyone.

You said it is a waste of resources? What cost more giving people food or throwing them in jail and oh giving them food anyway. If you just start killing people they are going to fight back and they are going to win, there are too many of them. And if you can kill them you still have to pay for the military force. And what cost more? Feeding people or allowing hunger to get them to steal and pillage business after business until they are shot or arrested?

its alo a collective judgement to say the looters are people in the hurricane taking from shops. Many of the looters are from other states and are only there to have a free for all like old school carpet baggers.
Last edited by Ry on Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Ry » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:11 am

ps
No one needs to defend being against racism,or to tolerate it. Be a fucking man and get rid if fascist assheads and show where you stand.
I don't censor people for unpopular views. I only give people the boot when and if they post personal information about someone against their will or they just come to spam. Politically, it is free speech here, anyone can say whatever they want. It does not make me less of a man for not censoring people. Any coward could say click, and bann someone form the board. So far I have not had to bann anyone.

Name calling is bad. that includes calling some one a fascist. I make it clear where I stand. I am not a racist and I am not religious. I am anti-war etc etc, everyone here knows where I stand. I know how you feel. But avoiding discussion or debate does not change any minds it just keeps them where they are. I have talked to some hardcore racist (national alliance folks) before and had them change their minds and the same can be said for religion. It isn't fun, but i believe in ALL free speech. i also believe in giving reasons for stances. People do and can change.
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Post by Dissent » Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:34 pm

mediasyko wrote:Boy Icon, you sound just like those neocon fudamentalist Christians claiming that God is punishing those sinners in New Orleans!
i was talking to my neighbor about this the other day. now hes hardcore christian, pro-life, believes creationism, etc. and he believes that god punished new orleans because most people practiced witchcraft, voodoo, and other spooky unchristian shit. And for the people who did survived they were the ones that were faithful so they lived. i told him he was nuts. he told me it was just the beginning of the ???.
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Post by mediasyko » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:13 pm

All the talk around here (TN) lately has been about the refugees, and the threat they pose to the other cities. Good ol followers of the faith think we shouldn't help these people because they are going to be spreading the filth. And there is a reason that the murder captiol of the world is under water, we should not tamper with nature's wrath. LOL for once they listen to nature, when it is their favor! I haven't heard anything about condeming voodoo, it's all been about poverty, crime, addicts, and gays. Which makes perfect since why so many elderly and children are dying! (sarcasm)

As far as these people should have evacuated, or known better...here is my take.

Florida, MS, AL, GA, TX, LA, NC, SC , VA and soo on has the possiblity to experience 8 or so hurricanes a year. Imagine how many you sit through in 5 yrs, or a life time. How many times can you take a vacation, or just up and leave town in one year? You need gas, car, bus ticket, hotel room, money to eat out for a few days. 3 day evacuation could cost $200- $300. And say you paid all your bills on friday, and the huuricane came on Tuesday. I'm just pointing out a number of reasons why people don't evacuate.

Granted all those states know the dangers of hurricanes, then I guess no one should live there, just as no one should live on the west coast because of the earthquakes, and no one should live in the midwest because of tornadoes. All the coast lines risk tsunami, and the far north risks blizzards. The whole damn nation should live in North and South Dakota where it's safe!!?

No where is safe. And you can't blame the victims because a disaster could have happened anywhere. However, fault does lie with the nation and the gov't as in the levee breach could have been avoided. Bush cut funding to repairing the levees to fund his fucking war, now look how much this city is costing him! We have all the reasources in the world to perform a rescue opperation, get supplies to those people, and other nations offered their assistance, but NO. The gov't held back purposely as more people were dying. Materialism became more important than human life as military was turned on people and away from rescue. So what if there was looting, all those companies are going to get a large sum of money from insurance, and they were damaged goods anyway. The shooting, the chaos, the amount of devistation, the spread of death and disease could have been avoided or less severe if the gov't would have responded in time. How many are dying from the aftermath than the hurricane itself?
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Post by brimofinsanity » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:41 pm

Iconoclast...

Do you believe that you are the "best" person on this board, in the US, in the world? What exactly makes you so important, or at least so much more important than the rest of us "normals" or "weaklings"? What are you doing with your life, and why is it so much better than anybody elses lives? I'd like to know what you do for a living, and how elite you believe your job is compared to others.

What are your criteria for NOT being a "normal" or "weakling"? It sounds like its money to me. So, don't all of these profiteering neoconservatives, with all of their power and wealth, deserve to be the ruling class then, by your own logic? afterall, they wouldnt have all of that money and power if they hadn't the advanced intellect that they do, correct? dumb people get poor, and smart people get rich, right?

im assuming that you arent doing much... you dont have any power. So maybe according to your own logic, you should be wiped out with the rest of us.
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Post by Revolution » Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:20 pm

Bush cut funding to repairing the levees to fund his fucking war, now look how much this city is costing him! We have all the reasources in the world to perform a rescue opperation, get supplies to those people, and other nations offered their assistance, but NO. The gov't held back purposely as more people were dying. Materialism became more important than human life as military was turned on people and away from rescue
Thus the media must make the victims look like criminals, to soften Bush's utter lack of response and neglect. Bush will lose a Southern State. Maybe 2 States, this will ensure victories for the Democrats! Well hey it is better than what we got now right?

I think they WANT a police State. They know their days are numbered.

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:32 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Even with birth control Africa would be extremely overpopulated, let us not pretend that religion is much of a cause. And one reason it stays overpopulated is because the West, in their Christian kindness, keep giving them food and medicine instead of letting most of them die so food and resources aren't spread thinly.


ha ha ha

in their Christian kindness. LOL I almost fell out of my chair. The West controls the land in Africa via private ownership of the land, taken by force from long ago. They cause a food shortage on purpose and export food to Europe and then sell it back to Africa. They don't GIVE them aid, the "AID" is a nice word for Bank loans to pay to buy back their own damn food.

it is called a perpetual debt system. The medicine they give is to bolster profits for drug companies, they loans are paid back at the exspense of destorying the African currencies, thus insuring cheap labor and a worhtless money supply if anyone one is saving because your savuing will go down because of the inflation from the perpetual debt system.

The World Bank will give a loan for African nation to build schools and hostpitals BUT not a loan to make manufacturing plants for African products. If they build the schools they go into debt but tehy have no way to pay it with their short money supply. So they lease more land to Western corporations for cheap to pay for the loans for their infastucture.

IF they could have a source of money AKA manufacture their own goods, because they have plenty of resources, they could sell products all over the world and then they could build their own schools and hospitals roads etc with no loan or with a payable one and they would not have to lease the land to Westerners.

Do they teach you that is school? hell no they make you think Africans are just stupid. They take a paternal attitude to it.
Clap clap clap! I have never heard that explained so well. Without knowing about that it seems like Africa is some shit-hole simply because Africans can not get things together.

Christian kindness? The Christian churches sit on tens of billions of dollars. Are they saving that money for God? Religious people are the greatest sheep of all.

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Post by HORATIO » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:15 pm

expendable youth wrote:
mediasyko wrote:Boy Icon, you sound just like those neocon fudamentalist Christians claiming that God is punishing those sinners in New Orleans!
i was talking to my neighbor about this the other day. now hes hardcore christian, pro-life, believes creationism, etc. and he believes that god punished new orleans because most people practiced witchcraft, voodoo, and other spooky unchristian shit. And for the people who did survived they were the ones that were faithful so they lived. i told him he was nuts. he told me it was just the beginning of the ???.
Calling Icococlast a fascist is bad? You just made me laugh. Well run things how ever you like but toleration of nazi type douche bags just puts
better people off having anything to do with you.
Anyway this has now veered far enough off topic,suffice to say,you can't run with tthe hare and run with the hounds.

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